乌利·希克，瑞士人，1995年至1998年任瑞士驻中国大使。乌利·希克从80年代开始接触中国先锋艺术，收藏了180多位艺术家的近2000件作品。乌利·希克被称为“完整收藏了中国当代艺术的人”，英国艺术杂志《ArtReview》将他评为“影响世界艺术100人”之一。
作为中国当代艺术最具影响力的收藏家，服务器艺术也非常荣幸的邀请到了希克先生加入专家委员会。为此，服务器艺术基金会（筹）理事长谢蓉，理事会理事成卓，艺术总监顾振清、共同对乌利·希克进行了采访，希克先生也回应了他最新的收藏动向、对中国当代艺术的独到理解、“后疫情时代”的艺术发展趋势等等问题，并对服务器艺术平台的发展提出了诸多建议。
本次采访内容将分为两期推送，本次是采访的上半部分。
Uli Sigg served as the Swiss ambassador to China from 1995 to 1998. He first encountered Chinese avant-garde art in the 1980s, and since that time, he has collected more than 2,000 works by over 180 artists. Uli Sigg’s collection has been recognized as the most comprehensive collection of Chinese contemporary art, and he has beennamed in the ArtReview Power 100 list, which recognizes the world’s one hundredmost influential people in art every year.
The Server Art Foundation is honored that Uli Sigg, one of the most influential collectors of Chinese contemporary art, has joined its Expert Committee. Here, Sigg is interviewed by Xie Rong, chair of the Server Art Foundation, and Joy Cheng, member of the board of directors of the Server Art Foundation，Gu Zhenqing, art director of the Server Art Foundation. In the interview, Sigg discussed his current thinking about collecting, his unique understanding of Chinese contemporary art, and the development of art in the post-pandemic world. He also offered numerous suggestions for the future development of the Server Art Foundation.
The interview will be presented in two parts. This is the first part.
顾振清
大家好！我是此次与著名收藏家乌利·希克（Uli Sigg）对谈的主持人顾振清，是服务器艺术基金会的艺术总监，也是一名独立策展人。接下来，我来介绍一下谢蓉女士，她是服务器艺术理事长、创始人，也是未来论坛的艺术顾问。未来论坛是当前中国颇具声望的民间科学公益组织。还有我的同事成卓女士，她是服务器艺术基金会理事、当代艺术家。最后，我们有幸请来乌利·希克，著名收藏家，“中国当代艺术奖CCAA”的创始人。CCAA如今发展为“希克奖”（Sigg Prize），于香港M+博物馆设立。希克先生曾任瑞士驻华大使。先请谢蓉向各位介绍服务器艺术基金会与其使命，这也是乌利之前想了解的。有请谢蓉。
Gu Zhenqing: Hello! I’m Gu Zhenqing, the moderator for this discussion with famous collector Uli Sigg. First, let me introduce myself. I’m the Art Director of the Server Art Foundation and an independent curator. This is Xie Rong, the chair and founder of the Server Art Foundation. She is also an art advisor to the Future Forum, a well-known forum for Chinese scientists. Also here is my colleague, Joy Cheng. She is a member of the board of directors of the Server Art Foundation and a contemporary artist. Now, a bit about Uli Sigg: he is a renowned collector and the founder of Chinese Contemporary Art Award CCAA which is now the Sigg Prize at the M+ Museum in Hong Kong. He previously served as the Swiss ambassador to China.
First, Xie Rong will begin by sharing a bit about the Server Art Foundation. She will introduce the foundation and its mission. Uli, you were wondering about that. Now for Xie Rong…
谢蓉
好的，大家好！希克先生好！最近您一切好吗？
Xie Rong: OK, Hello, everyone. Hello, Uli Sigg! How are you?
乌利·希克
我很好，我很好。我现在在意大利。我现在看到的你是在北京吗，还是哪里？你在哪里？北京还是别的地方？
Uli Sigg: I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m in Italy. I’m watching you in Beijing or where? Where’re you, Beijing?
谢蓉
我现在在美国。
Xie Rong: I’m in America.
顾振清
对。
GZQ: Yes.
谢蓉
好，我们可以开始了吗？
Xie Rong: Okay, shall we start?
顾振清
嗯。
GZQ: Yeah.
谢蓉
好的，首先让我介绍一下服务器艺术基金会（筹）。服务器艺术基金会（筹）是致力于中国当代艺术的非营利性艺术组织，旨在推动与艺术、科学和哲学相关的跨学科交流。近日，我们在线上与线下举办了一系列跨界当代艺术、科学和哲学的研讨会及讲座。明年，我们计划与未来论坛、锡纯基金会及Zeng Harburg initiative基金会共同举办科学艺术双年展。此外，我们计划建构服务器艺术基金会（筹）的艺术收藏。作为服务器艺术的创始人，我由衷感谢希克先生的支持，感谢您加入服务器艺术基金会的专家委员会，同时感谢您参与本次对谈。接下来，我将把采访交给我的两位同事顾振清先生和成卓女士。
Xie Rong: Okay, To begin with, let me introduce the Server Art Foundation. The Server Art Foundation is a non-profit art organization dedicated to Chinese contemporary art. We promote interdisciplinary exchange related to art, science, and philosophy. We have held a series of symposium, seminars, and lectures on contemporary art, science, and philosophy both online and offline. We will host a biennale of art and science with Future Forum，Xichunjijin and Zeng Harburg initiative Foundation next year. We also plan to build an art collection for the Server Art Foundation. Before we get started, as the founder and chair of the Server Art Foundation, I want to thank you, Mr. Sigg, for your support and for being a member of the Server Art Foundation’s Expert Committee, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Now, we’ll hand the interview over to my colleagues, Gu Zhenqing and Joy Cheng.
乌利·希克
感谢您的介绍。
Uli Sigg: Thank you for the introduction.
顾振清
感谢谢蓉的开场。有请成卓，她准备了四个问题。
GZQ: Yes, Xie Rong, thank you for that introduction. Now we’ll turn to Joy Cheng, who has prepared four questions for you. Whenever you’re ready, Joy…
成卓
您好，乌利。首先，我要对您在过去30年为中国当代艺术所做的贡献表示敬意。几日前，我们读到Artnet对您的采访。采访中，您提到现在收藏的是一群更小众的艺术家作品，是您个人喜欢的艺术家。对此您能否细谈一下？
Joy Cheng: Hello Uli, please let me first express my admiration for what you have done for Chinese contemporary art over the last thirty years. A few days ago, we read an interview you did with Artnet. They asked many questions, but in that interview, you mentioned that you now collect work by a much smaller group of artists, your favorite artists. Can you elaborate on that?
乌利·希克
我那样说是指2012年我向香港M+博物馆捐赠藏品后我收藏的变化。此前，我像国家级收藏机构一样进行收藏，当我捐出藏品后，那个阶段就结束了，我没必要再以过去方式进行收藏。现在，有很多机构和个人藏家可以通过收藏来续写中国当代艺术史，因此我就不需要再那样做了。
▲“M+希克藏品：中国当代艺术四十年”展览现场图
如果要说有什么变化，那就是我切换了收藏的重点，现在只涉猎我个人感兴趣的艺术家及其作品。过去，我一直试图反映中国整个的艺术创作状况，与我个人的品味无关。它反映了跨媒介和那个时代的艺术创作。当时所有重要的作品，我都纳入收藏。但现在，我可以按自己的兴趣去收了，之前我只能将个人品味置之脑后。这是真正的区别所在。我现在专注于我个人最感兴趣的东西。
US: When I said that, I was talking about what I have done since I made my donation in 2012. Before that, I collected like one imagines a national institution would collect. When I made the donation, I closed that chapter, and there was no need to continue to collect in that way. Now, there are so many institutions and private collectors who collect and will be able to continue to write the history of Chinese contemporary art together, so there was no need for me to keep collecting the same way.
What has changed? I changed my focus in the sense that I started to collect only artists who are making things that I personally find very interesting. Before, I was trying to mirror the whole artistic production of China; this was not about my taste. It was about reflecting art production across all media and along the timeline. Whatever was of importance at the moment, I tried to put in that collection. But now, it’s about my own interests and my own taste, which I had to push into the background before. That’s really the difference. I have focused on things that I am personally most interested in.
成卓
您喜欢什么样的作品，能给我们举些例子吗？
JC: Can you give us an example of your interests?
乌利·希克
我对提到具体名字一向比较谨慎，我提谁不提谁都不好......但我喜欢的是更前卫、更前沿的艺术作品，所以我不是只关注一个类型而回避另一类。作品应该符合以下的标准：它应具备新奇、惊人、复杂和隐晦等特性，最理想的是具有上述所有特性。我更青睐当代艺术里最前沿的艺术。
US: Well, I’m always cautious about mentioning names. If I mention someone then I don’t mention someone else... But I think of works that are edgier and more at the very forefront of art production, so I can’t say that I focus on one thing and I avoid another. It is art that fulfils certain criteria; it should have novelty, surprise, complexity, ambiguity,ideally all of the above.. I focus more on work that is at the very forefront ofcontemporary art.
成卓
您是指最先锋的作品？
JC: Things that are very avant-garde? Things like that?
乌利·希克
是的，这些作品可能是创新的、新奇的，或者非常强烈的。我想这可能是您的另一个问题…...有时我还会带着自己研究的主题去找艺术家，这点我们可能后面再讨论。
US: Yes, they may be innovations, novelties, or something else very intense. I think that’s your other question… I may also go to an artist with a topic I researched, but that may be a discussion for another time.
成卓
谢谢！这正好是我想问您的第二个问题。为什么会选择“中国梦”作为您的一个收藏主题？之前您在Artnet的访谈里提到过，我认为很有意思。
JC: Thank you, thank you. That’s actually my second question. Why did you choose the Chinese Dream as one of your subjects? You also mentioned it in that interview, and I think it’s very interesting.
乌利·希克
我当下的收藏更多是委托艺术家去创作。为什么我要委托？我个人认为自己是一名中国的研究者。我的终极主题就是中国，所以当我了解到“中国梦”之类的政策问题，我就很想研究它。
当然，前提是我要阅读文献和做些访谈，但我发现还有一个效果好的方法，就是去找一个对此有见解或至少可以一起进行研究出成果的艺术家。我想透过艺术家的眼光来审视这一主题。由此，我可以从商人、从政者，以及当代艺术家这三种角度，去研究清楚同一问题。
我会找到一位艺术家，和她/他一起探讨一个如“中国梦”这样的特定主题，也可以找多个艺术家。比如，我策划过一个围绕当代艺术家如何看待汉字以及传统书法的展览，所以我就找到一个艺术家，那次是冯梦波，我想知道：在智能手机里，谁来决定选择哪些汉字？共选多少个汉字？这些问题大多数中国人既不知道答案也不感兴趣。我和这位艺术家一起研究是为了弄清谁决定你智能手机里的内容。现在我知道智能手机里大约有7500个汉字，谁作出这些选择。我经常与一个艺术家探讨一个话题，这就是我们的合作方法。
US: My current collecting is more about commissioning works. Why do I commission? Personally, I see myself as a researcher of China. My ultimate subject is China, so when I learn about a policy issue like the Chinese Dream, I want to research that topic.
Of course, I must read and I must talk to people, but one method that I find very rewarding is going to an artist who I think could have something to say or, at least, who I could work with to say something about that topic. I want to see that same topic through the eyes of an artist. This way, I get to see an issue through my methods of studying things, as a person in business, as a person who was involved in politics, and in a third way, through contemporary art.
I will go to an artist and develop something with her or him about a particular topic like the Chinese Dream. There could be many others. For instance, I prepared an exhibition about how contemporary artists see calligraphy, the tradition of calligraphy, so I went to an artist, to Feng Mengbo in that case, and I wanted to know: Who decides which characters are in your smart device? How many are in your smart device? These are questions that most Chinese people would neither know the answer to nor have an interest in. I researched that subject together with the artist in order to find out who decides what’s in your smart phone. I now know it’s almost 7,500 characters, and who made the choices. I often research a topic with an artist, and we collaborate in that way.
成卓
我们想了解更多。
JC: We would like to know more.
乌利·希克
其它主题的例子也可以来自一个研究过程本身。社会信用系统研究是我通过自己的渠道及透过艺术家的视角研究的另一个主题。我委托一位艺术家与我合作研究关于社会信用评分的问题，它反映出我研究和收集资料的方法。这些基于研究的委托作品会成为我的收藏。
US: Other examples of topics could be the creative process itself. The social credit system was another issue that I studied through my own channels, as well as through an artist’s eyes. I commissioned an artist to do a work with me about social credit scores, reflecting my way of researching and collecting. These research-based commissions will end up in my collection.
成卓
非常有意思，这是非同寻常的收藏方法，对吧？
JC: Very interesting. It’s rather unusual, right?
乌利·希克
的确，这不是多数人的收藏方式。
US: Yeah, it’s probably not the normal procedure for most people.
成卓
所以，您先研究主题，再亲自挑选艺术家，然后您找他们探讨委托的主题，是这样吧？
JC: So, you’ve already studied and hand-picked an artist, then you go to them and you talk about your project, right?
乌利·希克
是的。艺术家自己也得对这个主题感兴趣，我也要感觉到这个艺术家能对这个主题有所贡献，这是我寻找合适受托者的方法。
US: Yes. The artist must also have an interest in that particular subject, and I have to have the impression that this artist can add something to this topic, so that’s how I search for an appropriate artist.
成卓
您从他们过往的作品中形成这种判断，对吗？
JC: And you know that from their previous works, is that right?
乌利·希克
没错，先看他们过去的作品，以及他们的创作方法，我来判断他/她是否能够对这个主题有独到见解。
US: Yes, from their previous works and from the methods they apply, I determine if he or she is an artist who would have something to say about this subject.
▲ 希克在瑞士家中的收藏
成卓
嗯，我明白了。作为藏家，您期望中国艺术家在作品中表现出强烈的中国特色，还是根据个人经历来传达人类的普世价值？您怎么看？
JC: Right, I see. As a collector, do you expect Chinese artists to show strong Chinese characteristics in their work or should they reflect common human or universal values based on their personal experiences? What do you think?
乌利·希克
对我而言，答案不是非此即彼。一件作品可以涵盖甚至超越这两个面向，既可同时进行，也可递进发生，但对我来说，材料并不重要。我更在意两个层面，一层内容，一层形式。
在任意一个层面里，艺术家可以弄“中国特色”，可以用中国符号，可以引述传统，这些都可以。抑或，艺术家想成为你提到的普世价值、而我称作“全球主流艺术”的一部分，这种主流艺术是我们通常理解的世界当代艺术的模式，看上去越来越相似。无论采用何种方法，艺术家都须出类拔萃。对于创作方法我没有偏爱，艺术作品的内涵更重要。
我适才说到，要看作品是否创新，是否关乎当代。这可以体现在作品的内容或形式的创新上。作品是否能让我眼前一亮？能否引我进入我所不能抵达之境？这些也许是我收藏的终极标准。作品可使用、引用中国传统，或者完全不同的方法。对于主题我没有偏好，艺术家有如此多的方式选择主题、表达自己，内容也好，形式也罢。说到内容，多个世纪来，我们常见的是死亡、爱情、性或者宗教等等，现又加了身份、都市、政治和其它议题。
我们无法期待一个艺术家每天发明一个新主题，就像某个著名艺术家说的，你不可能每天割下自己的一只耳朵——指像梵高一样，也不可能每天写出贝多芬第五交响曲。期望艺术家这样做不现实。因此，艺术家如何表达他/她想表达之意，才能形成差异。
US: For me, it’s not an either/or. In an oeuvre there can be all of it. It can be all at the same time or it can be all in a sequence, but for me, that’s not material. I look more closely at two layers, one is the layer of content, and the other is the layer of form.
In either layer, the artist may use “Chinese characteristics,” they may use Chinese symbols, or they may refer to tradition—that’s all OK. Or the artist may just want to be a part of—I think this is the second thing you referred to—what I call “global mainstream art,” which is what we commonly understand as that mode of worldwide contemporary art that looks more and more alike. The artist has to excel at whatever method she chooses. I don’t prefer a method, so what the artwork is about is more important. As I mentioned, does this artwork have novelty,a concern of today? This could be in content. Or novelty in form.. Does it surprise me? Can this artist take me somewhere I cannot go myself? That is maybe the ultimate criteria for me and how I collect. The work could use or refer to Chinese traditionor something totally different. I don’t have a subject I prefer, and artists have so many different ways to choose subjects and express themselves, be it in content or form. When we talk about content, of course for centuries we very often end up with death, love, sex, or, I don’t know, religion, now we added identity, urbanism, politics and others.
We can’t expect an artist to invent something new every day in terms of content. A famous artist said that you can’t cut off your ear every day-referring to Van Goghs-and you can’t compose Beethoven’s Fifth every day. You can’t expect an artist to do that.Therefore how the artist expresses whatever he/she expresses is making most of a difference.
成卓
是的，是的。
JC: Right, right.
乌利·希克
作品一定要有力度。艺术家可用任何主题，但他们对待主题的方式，在我看来，决定了他们是好艺术家还是平庸的艺术家，决定了其艺术有没有意义。作为艺术家，你能否用我们没见过的方式呈现一件作品？主题可以是老旧的，但艺术家或能找到新方式表现它。当然，有的艺术只关乎形式或形式相关的东西，比如抽象艺术。你可以作出很有趣的作品，即使主题与现实生活无关而只关乎形式。我们还能画出新画吗？还是如俄国画家马列维奇（Malevitch）所说：世上最后一幅画已在1910年就画完了？那些纯粹讲究形式的作品在思想上也可以非常有趣。
就如与中国传统相关的作品，对我也是非常有趣的主题。当代艺术家如何看待中国传统：是想继续保持传统不变，还是将传统带向别处？或者嘲笑传统？处理这些问题的方式可能相当有趣，或无趣至极。因此，如何表达就成了判断作品是否有意义的关键。我对于用“好”和“坏”这两个词比较谨慎，我更倾向于用“有意义” 和“没什么意义”来讨论。以上是我对您部分问题的回答，如果我说得太多，您可以随时打断我。
US: There must be an intensity in the work. The artist can use any subject, but the way the artist treats the subject decides, in my view, good or not-so-good artists, or meaningful or not-so-meaningful art. Can you as an artist present it in a way we have not seen yet? It may be a very old topic, but the artist may present it in a new way. Then, of course, there’s art that just deals with form only, with formal questions, like abstract art. You can make very interesting art about issues that may have nothing to do with real lifebut with formal things only. Can we still paint a new painting or has that last painting already been painted 1910 as its Russian painter Malevitch claimed? There are works that deal purely with form, and they can be intellectuallyvery interesting.
Just as works that deal with Chinese tradition, which is a very interesting topic for me. How do contemporary artists see the Chinese tradition: Do they want to continue the Chinese tradition as it is? Do they want to take that tradition somewhere else? Are they making fun of their tradition? All these different things can be treated either very interestingly or very boringly, so how they are done is the most crucial issue in meaningful and less-meaningful art. I’m cautious about the words “good” or “bad”. I prefer to talk about “meaningful” and “less meaningful”. That may cover your question a little bit, you’ll stop me if I’m talking too much…
成卓
没关系，您讲的很有意思，之前我们没有机会问您这些问题，所以非常高兴您能与我们分享这些想法。您是希望艺术家能够拓宽艺术的边界，还是思想和观念的边界？
JC: No, no. It’s really interesting, and we’ve never had the opportunity to ask these questions before, so we’re really glad that you can share your thoughts with us. Do you expect the artists to broaden the boundaries of art or the boundaries of thinking, of ideas?
乌利·希克
是的，实际上，我希望他们拥有上面提到的所有特点，但我不能期望从一个艺术家身上得到所有。我之前说过，如果艺术家不能让我耳目一新，即便是不错的艺术，也不是我的兴趣。当然，我年龄较大，至今看过的作品成千上万，因此让我兴奋更难。这意味着我喜欢的艺术很可能就得是在内容或形式上拓宽边界。
一件作品未必面面俱到，但它可以令人大开眼界或以有趣的方式使用一种新的媒介。我们可以探讨新媒体，但如果作品本身没有拓宽界限，那么极有可能是重复前人，屡见不鲜。他们或许比以前做的更好，这没问题，但我们现在谈的是真正有意义的艺术，不是吗？
US: Yes, in fact, I expect them to do everything, but I cannot expect everything from one artist. As I said earlier, if the artist cannot take me somewhere that I haven’t been, then that might be OK art, but it’s not my interest. And of course, I’m older and I have seen hundreds of thousands of artworks by now, so it takes something more to pique my interest. This also means that, most likely, the art I like pushes some boundary, in content or in form.
One work can’t do everything, but it may open up or use a new medium in an interesting way. We could talk about new media, but also there if the art doesn’t push some boundary, then it’s most likely repetitious, and we will have seen it before. They might do it much better than before, which is also fine!But here we’re talking about art that is really significant, right?
成卓
所以，如果我理解的没错的话，您寻找的是先锋艺术的方法，无论是技巧、理念，还是新媒体。您要的是所有新的东西，对吧？
JC: So, if I understand, you’re looking for an avant-garde approach in the artist’s techniques and ideas, but also new media. You’re looking for everything, right?
乌利·希克
没错，但不一定要求同一位艺术家，或在同一件作品里。一件作品要突破一些框框，挑战一些极限，或至少将一个有趣的想法推至极致，才足以吸引我。
US: Yes, but maybe not by the same artist, and not in the same work. A work has to reach some boundary or has to test some limitation, or at least to push an interesting idea to its very limit to fascinate me.
成卓
明白，那内容要与政治、社会学相关吗？
JC: Right, and also have political and sociological content?
乌利·希克
那倒未必，但如果作品关注政治与社会问题，那也算带我进入新领域，到达某种边界。我们不想看重复的表达，不想感到乏味，所以我个人比较喜欢有所突破的艺术。这只是我个人的价值判断，您不必认同，其他人亦然。这是个人的想法，大家可能有不同见解。我从当代艺术学到的最重要一课，就是学会接受：有很多不同于我们的认识事物的方式。
US: Not necessarily, but if the artwork focuses on that, then that artwork should also take me to that place, to a boundary. We don’t want to see repetition and we don’t want to be bored, so that’s the art that I, personally, am interested in. It’s just a value judgment for myself; you don’t have to follow it, and neither does anyone else. This is personal, and other people may look at it differently. That for me is the primary lesson of contemporary art anyhow: We learn to accept that there are many more ways to perceive something than our own view.
成卓
好的。我的第四个问题是：您收集并研究了中国当代艺术三十多年，您认为过去十年中国当代艺术家的国际地位发生了怎样的变化？
JC: OK, my fourth question is: You have collected and studied Chinese contemporary art for over thirty years. How do you think the global status of Chinese contemporary artists has changed in the last decade?
乌利·希克
啊，您问了一个很大的问题…… 很多综合因素在起作用。
国外认为，与今日相比，中国当代艺术曾有过辉煌岁月。实际上，十年或十五年前，中国当代艺术比现在更受欢迎的原因很多，与市场不无关系：市场永远需要“鲜肉”，且永远要创新的。曾几何时，市场觉得中国当代艺术很新鲜，或国际策展人此前没见过。这些都大有帮助，加之中国艺术彼时也非常有张力，他们叙述、描绘与处理的情境是世界所不熟悉的，因此中国当代艺术也是观世界的一种全新视角，对于不了解中国传统或中国艺术的人尤然。他们非常惊异，我知道的，因为我当时代表中国当代艺术奖（CCAA）与很多人交流过。
许多著名策展人说：“哇，我们不知道中国艺术创作有如此的广度和深度，并囊括了所有媒介，远不仅是水墨画。”当然，这些我们早已知道，但他们不了解。然而，那个时代已成往事，一些中国艺术家抓住时机，水涨船高，但更多的很快淡出，不再受国际关注，无论是对还是错。可能由于他们不再对艺术有所贡献，或是他们重复自己等等，原因很多。
我认为，国际关注出现了停滞，人们不再因为是中国艺术就感兴趣，而是喜欢有意义的艺术。在全球主流艺术占有一席之地也不再需要“很中国”的标签。当我说“全球主流艺术”，我指的是百来个几乎到处可见的艺术家。他们的作品被世界各地收藏——我说的是国际艺术家，也包括一些中国艺术家，会出现在所有双年展。其中的很多艺术家也出现在拍卖会图录里。这拨人里的中国艺术家并不多，不是因为他们不够好，而是由于他们不够知名，或者身后没有同样重量级的营销网络，或者策展人没有时间进行必要的研究。这些情况决定了世界如何看待中国当代艺术。当下局势也是某种倒退——我该怎么说——我们正在目睹中美之间的争战，这意味着你若是一家西方大美术馆想办一场中国当代艺术大展，你不会受欢迎，也可能找不到赞助。而在过去，世界对中国当代艺术展确有需求，人们感到中国将变得很重要，所以要努力了解这个国家及其艺术。
我告诉过很多人：你可以读一百本关于中国的书，但一场大型中国当代艺术展会更直观地展示这个庞大而复杂的社会。因为西方得对付中国，所以他们曾对中国兴趣浓厚，但现在出现了一种危险，一种倒退，因为情绪变了。忽然之间，中国成为西方多国的敌人，至少他们这么感觉。这对中国艺术不利。但如果一位中国艺术家卓越于国际水准，这些并不会妨碍他，受制的是大型展览或中国艺术的市场。 我看到了一个问题，但我不确定是否有必要在这里多谈。由于有各种规定和审查等，中国艺术家创作时就像拉着手刹开车，而国外的竞争对手没有刹车，他们可以做更多的研究，只需跟着直觉去创作。若你的创造力受到过多的限制，要成为一个好的艺术家及在全球艺术竞争中脱颖而出真是难上加难。我不想谈政治，但我认为中国当代艺术圈之外及官方对当代艺术有不同的理解：他们用不同的眼镜去看待当代艺术。受传统影响，他们认为艺术应令人愉悦，令人变得崇高，带我们超凡脱俗，向我们展示理想和美好，带来和谐。在这一传统思维模式中，艺术是你的好朋友，但当代艺术并非如此。
当代艺术会戳你的痛处或批判现实，而传统艺术展示的理想世界是世界应有的样子。当然，我是一言概之，但大抵如此。在社会主义的现实主义至上的年代，艺术变成“父亲般的朋友”，告诉你世界应该怎样，你该怎样面对，或理想的劳动英雄是什么样的。但当代艺术不是你的好朋友。它要你直面现实，有兴趣去批判现实；你得对艺术打开的新空间和新思想有兴趣和好奇；你得比在旧传统里思想更开放。你若不能培养自己这种开放，便不会欣赏当代艺术。
这亦有一个时间问题：你接触当代艺术有多久？只有接触过它才能欣赏它，这同五十年前或七十年前的西方一样。人们会诧异：“他们在做什么？我看不懂！”这是一个过程，而这一过程需要多接触。你还需要和别人讨论好例子和坏例子。当你不参与这样的讨论，就会看不懂。这是当下困扰中国当代艺术的另一个问题。
US: Well, you’ve given me a very big task here… There are so many factors in play.
I think that Chinese contemporary art has had better moments, in the eyes of the rest of the world, than today. In fact, ten or fifteen years ago, it was hotter than it is today for any number of reasons. This also has to do with the market—the market always wants “fresh meat.” It always demands something new, and there was a moment when Chinese art appeared new to the market or to the international curators who hadn’t encountered Chinese contemporary art before, so that helped, but Chinese art at that time was also quite intense. It was working on, describing, and dealing with a situation that the world was not familiar with, so Chinese contemporary art was also a way to see the world anew, particularly for people who knew almost nothing about Chinese tradition or Chinese art. They were very surprised, I know that, because I talked to so many people about contemporary art on behalf of the Chinese Contemporary Art Award (CCAA).
So many famous curators said, “Wow, we had no idea that Chinese art production has such breadth and such depth, and that it also deals with every media there is. It’s not simply ink painting.” Of course, these were things we all knew, but they didn’t. However, that moment has passed, and a few Chinese artists actually seized the moment and rode this wave, but many fell out of the international spotlight and were not followed anymore, rightly or wrongly. It may have been because they didn’t contribute much anymore, or maybe they did more of the same—there could have been many reasons.
I think the interest has plateaued a little bit; people are no longer interested just because it’s Chinese art, and now it just has to be very meaningful art. It doesn’t have to come across very “Chinese” to conquer a place in global mainstream art. When I say “global mainstream art,” I mean these about hundred artists we see almost everywhere. We see them now in all the collections worldwide—and I’m talking about international artists, some Chinese included—and ,although a somewhat different set,in all the biennales. We also see many of them in the auction catalogs. There aren’t many Chinese artists in these groups, not because they are worse, but because they are not well-known or they don’t have the same marketing power networks behind them, or the curators might lack the time for necessary research. These are the realities that decide how the world looks at Chinese contemporary art. There may also be a kind of backlash now because there is — how should I put this — this war we are now witnessing between the U.S. and China, so you’re not going to be very popular and you may not be able to secure sponsoring if you’re a big Western museum staging a big Chinese contemporary art exhibition right now. Before, there was a real demand for these shows; people felt that China was going to be very important, so they should try to understand it and its art. I told so many people that you can read a hundred books about China, but a big Chinese contemporary art exhibition may tell so much more about this vast and complex society. There was this intense interest in China, because the West had to reckon with China, but now there is a danger, there is a backlash, because the mood has changed. Now, all of the sudden, China is an enemy to many countries in the West, or that’s how they feel. That doesn’t help Chinese art. But if a Chinese artist really excels by international standards, it’s not a handicap either. It may be a handicap for the big exhibitions, or for the marketfor Chinese art. I see an issue there, but I’m not sure we need to talk more about that here. There’s also the fact that Chinese artists in their creations are kind of driving a car with the handbrake pulled, because of regulation, censorship, and all that, while their competitors outside China don’t have that brake and they can do more research and they can just follow their instincts and produce. If you are constrained in your creativity — overly constrained — it is just so much more difficult to be a good artist and to have the global competition notice that you are a good artist. I don’t want to become too political, but I think there is still a different understanding in much of China outside contemporary art circles and in Official China:they look at art through a different lens. It’s still influenced by the tradition in which art is here for us to enjoy ourselves, to take us to the sublime, and take us to another world so as to escape from mundane tasks; it should show us the ideal, show us beauty and bring us a state of harmony. In that traditional mode of thinking, art is your good friend, but contemporary art is not. Contemporary art may put a finger in the wound or may be critical of reality. In the traditionan ideal world is presented, the world was shown as it ought to be. Of course, I’m generalizing, but that’s the basic idea. Then there was the period of socialist realism, where art became, shall we say, your “fatherly friend,” showing you how the world should be, how you should act, or what the ideal working hero looks like. But contemporary art is not your good friend.It requires you to be open to realities and to have an interest in its critique. You have to have an interest and a curiosity in art showing you new spaces and new thoughts. You have to be much more open than in the old tradition. If you don’t work onthis openness, you will not appreciate contemporary art.
It is also a question of time. How long have you been exposed to this kind of art? You can only appreciate it if you have been exposed to it; it was the same with the West fifty or seventy years ago. People said, “What are they doing? I don’t understand!” This is a process, and this process requires exposure; you need to have discussions of good and bad examples. When you cut off this discussion, people may not really get into it. That’s another issue that may be weighing on Chinese contemporary art right now.
成卓
撇开您所说的政治问题和审查制度，如果就技术、形式或观念而言，您认为中国当代艺术处于世界的什么位置？
JC: Aside from the political issues and censorship you talked about, if we speak in terms of technique, form, or concept, what do you think of the status of Chinese contemporary art in the world?
乌利·希克
我刚才并不完全在说审查，我谈的更多的是对待艺术应该何为的态度问题。艺术是否应是世外桃源，我可以去哪、得到愉悦再回到现实？还是我们真实生活的一部分？这甚至无关政治，而是两种截然不同的范式，是关于艺术何为的另一种想法。当然，有时还要考虑到审查制度。抱歉我打断了您，您能重复一下刚才的问题吗？
US: I was not necessarily talking just about censorship; I was talking more about the attitude toward what art should do. Should it just be a beautiful space over there, where I can go, be entertained, and then come back? Or should it really be part of our lives? That’s not even so political; it is just about two very different paradigms. It’s another idea of what art is about. But then of course, you may have to add censorship at times. But I did interrupt you, I’m very sorry. You asked me about… can you repeat it?
成卓
让我来换一种问法：大约二十年前，中国艺评家栗宪庭说，中国当代艺术就像西方餐桌上的一盘春卷。不知您是否听过这句话，但现在中国当代艺术的地位有变化吗？如果我们撇开政治，只谈艺术的观念、技术或形式，您是否认为这句话仍然适用？
JC: Let me put it another way. Maybe twenty years ago, Li Xianting, a famous Chinese critic, said that Chinese contemporary art was like a plate of spring rolls on a Western dinner table. I don’t know if you’d heard that quote before, but is that changing now? If we put politics aside and talk only about artistic concepts, techniques, or forms, do you think that is still true?
乌利·希克
我认为这种境况已经变了，因为中国的艺术创作比过去宽泛得多。在栗宪庭策展的时代，艺术非常政治化，几乎只关乎政治。作品都是反体制的，艺术家在与体制摩擦时产出某类艺术。现在情况已发生很大变化，中国社会与那时已截然不同，所以艺术家们面对的是当下社会，比如现在他们面对的是都市化与身份的问题......还有很多的可能性，甚至有很多抽象艺术，研究形式的问题，这在栗宪庭策展时非常罕见。
所以我认为情形已变，现在，西方的策展人、美术馆和了解情况的人，不再找“春卷”的类型；而那些不知情者，觉得要“做些和中国相关的事”的人依然在。他们没有消失，但在减少。当然，随着中国成为新敌人，我再次看到，永远不乏西方策展人选择关于人权、西藏或者熊猫之类的作品。我看到这些不了解中国的西方策展人选择这些作品，是因为他们以为这是观众想看的。所以我们可能从另一个方向回到从前类似的地方。这样有风险。
US: I think it has changed, because art creation in China is much broader than it was. When he was curating and presenting exhibitions, the art was very political, almost only political. It was produced against the system, and artists rubbing against the system create a certain type of art.
Now, that situation has very much changed, and Chinese society is in a very different place from where it was then, so the artists are dealing with where Chinese society is now. Now, they’re dealing with issues like urbanization or identity… There are so many possibilities. There is even much abstract art, with its formal questions, which was very rare, when Li Xianting was curating. so I think that has changed. Now, Western people — the curators, the museums, the ones who are in the know — don’t look for the “spring roll” type. But the people who are not in the know but feel they now “must do something Chinese” are still there. They haven’t disappeared, but became less numerous. Of course, you always have many Western curators — I see it coming again with China being the new enemywho will pick the works that have to do with human rights, Tibet and possibly pandas. I can again see Western curators who are not so familiar choosing these things because they think that it’s what their audience wants to see. So we may arrive back at a similar place, yetfrom another corner now. That’s a risk.
成卓
您刚刚说到，中国当代艺术不像以前那么火了，但您依然有兴趣。为什么？
JC: As you said, Chinese contemporary art may not be hot right now, but you’re still interested. Why is that?
乌利·希克
是的，我仍很有兴趣，因为如之前所说，我的终极主题仍是中国。所以我继续通过当代艺术进行我的研究。
我说了，无论是从商业还是政治的视角，穷尽一生都不足以真正了解中国，所以我会继续。还有，我身在其中——不是现在，因为现在无法旅行——但通常我每年来中国六到八次，我的朋友大多在艺术圈，很多是艺术家这类的。于我而言，继续是理所当然，我从不是一时兴起，我将此作为终身事业。中国当代艺术是一个巨大的空间，巨大的艺术生态，其诸多面向不会令我兴味索然。对我来说，只关注欧洲艺术，才是无聊。
US: Yes, still very interested, because as I mentioned earlier, my ultimate subject is still China, so I continue my research also through contemporary art.
As I said, through the lenses of business and politics only one life is not enough to come near a clear idea of China, so I must continue. Also, I sit in the middle of it — not now, because I cannot travel — but normally I come to China six to eight times a year, and most of my friends there are also in the art world. They’re artists and the like. For me, it just makes sense to continue. It was neverthe flavor of the moment for me; it’s a lifelong activity. It’s a huge space and a huge art scene. It has many, many facets, so I don’t think it’s boring in any way. For me, it’s far more boring to only have to focus on European art.
顾振清
感谢成卓，现在轮到我提问。乌利，我有五、六个问题。第一：这些年，中国策展人试图借助“大地艺术”（Land Art）或“田野艺术”（Field Art）的策展形式，纷纷将当代艺术带入农村。比如2018年在邓小平的故乡广安，我们策展人团队与谢蓉合作举办了2018广安田野双年展。我们邀请一些艺术家依据当地环境创作在地性的装置、雕塑，并讨论了“社会干预”的概念。乌利，您如何看待中国当代艺术的这一趋势？您如何看待当代艺术的社会干预力量？
GZQ: Thank you Joy, now I think it’s my turn. I have five or six questions for you, Uli, the first of which is: In recent years, Chinese curators have tried to bring contemporary art to the countryside through Land Art or “Field Art.” For example, in Guang’an, the hometown of Deng Xiaoping, we wanted to install some sculptural installations to try to bring art to the countryside. We proposed this “social intervention” in cooperation with Xie Rong last year. What do you think of this development in Chinese contemporary art, and what do you think of contemporary art’s power of social intervention?
▲“广安田野双年展”展览现场
乌利·希克
首先一个问题：在西方，大地艺术是一种具体的艺术媒介，旨对环境与土地进行重塑，不是在乡村进行的艺术项目。大地艺术隐含着美化景观，但您说的不是这种，对吧？
US: Well, first a question: in the West, Land Art is a specific art medium of shaping the environment,the the soil; it’s not doing art projects in the countryside. Land Art implies landscaping, but you’re not talking about that, right?
顾振清
好吧，我的例子可能归纳为“田野艺术”更合适。这是一个新词，新概念。不仅是把艺术带入乡野，而是把艺术带入农田，乡间，村庄，还有小镇。
GZQ: Well, the word we use is closer to “Field Art,” it’s a new word, a new concept. It’s not only bringing art into nature; it also brings art to agricultural areas, to the countryside, to villages, and to small towns.
乌利·希克
这个我理解，我刚才说的大地艺术很具体，它是景观艺术。但我们谈的不是这个，而是艺术在乡村的社会干预，对吗？
US: I understand, all I’m saying is that Land Art is a very specific thing. It’s landscaping art. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking more about social intervention in the countryside, right?
顾振清
是的，是的。
GZQ: Yes, yes.
乌利·希克
当然，中国乡村很大，生活着几亿人，把艺术带给他们是件好事。为什么排除农村在外？为什么农民不应也看当代艺术？正因如此，刚才我以当代艺术之名提出的倡议，正基于当代艺术扮演的重要角色，因它不只是将你带去一个美丽和谐世界。这同样适用于乡村，只是乡村所关心的可能确实有所不同。
在乡村，问题可能是：如何以合适的话题与当地人交流，令他们参与或愿意参与其中，使社会干预产生效果？也须从当地居民与地方政府的角度考虑，他们是否欢迎这种干预。我想这种地方干预可以产生极大影响。当然，对于艺术的所能，我们不该有太多幻想。或许艺术能打动一些直接受其影响的人，参与或目击干预者。但在边缘小城，依然会有上百万人对艺术一无所知。我们不该对干预的力量抱幻想，但如果艺术能够改变几个人的想法，改善其生活，令其意识到一个问题的存在，触发其内心的引擎，这也许是最重要的。
对艺术家来说，看到艺术在他们日常场域之外的空间如何运转也很可贵。他们或可获得不同的经验，让艺术向新的方向发展。我认为这是好事，只要有人愿意做，并有做事的资源。有时，这些干预仍能产生比在很大的城市更大的影响，因为大城市的人已然拥有一切，见过一切，或自认为见过一切。
US: Of course, the Chinese countryside is pretty big; there are a few hundred million people living there, so bringing art to them is a very good thing. Why should they be excluded? Why shouldn’t they also see contemporary art? For all these reasons, I made a plea on behalf of contemporary art earlier, because I think contemporary art has such an important role to play. It’s more than taking you to this beautiful or harmonious realm.
This also applies to the countryside, but they may just have different concerns and priorities. So, the question becomes: How can we reach them with the right topics, so that they can be engaged or want to engage, and the intervention will thus have an effect? You also have to consider how much the local people or the local authorities want or are adverse to this intervention — that’s yet another issue to consider. I think local intervention can have a strong effect. Of course, we shouldn’t have too many illusions about what art can do. Maybe art can move the people who are immediately affected or immediately there, or those who share in or witness an intervention, but there may be a million other people in that fourth-tier city who may not even take note.
We shouldn’t have illusions about the impact of these interventions, but if we only change a few people`s thinking, better their lives, or make them aware of an issue, maybe that’s the most important thing. If we start their inner engine, then it’s already worth it. It’s also very good for artists to see what art does in another space than where they normally operate. They may gain experience for their own practices, and that art will take off in another direction. Yes, I think it’s a very good thing, provided you find people willing to do it and you find the means to do it. These interventions still can at times reach more people than they would in a very large, saturated city where the people already have everything, or have seen everything, or think they have seen everything.
▲Transsolar、Tetsuo Kondo(近藤哲雄), “Cloudscape”《云景》,2015 ©ZKM
顾振清
感谢您的回答。我的下一个问题还是关于艺术干预。我们刚刚谈了社会中的艺术干预，接下来我想谈的是，艺术对艺术群体自身的干预。服务器艺术基金会以服务人类的智慧与知识生产为宗旨，我们的愿景和目标是打造一个融艺术、科学、哲学等领域的跨学科沟通空间。我们设立了科学与艺术联合实验室，颇似ZKM卡尔斯鲁厄艺术与媒体中心。但我们侧重结合科学与艺术的当下情境和底层逻辑。由此，我们希望为人工智能、虚拟现实、电子艺术及其它新媒体艺术的发展做出贡献。您如何看待这个方向？对我们有何建议？
GZQ: Thank you for your answer. My next question is also about art interventions; we just addressed art interventions in society, but next I want to ask about art interventions in the art community itself. The Server Art Foundation is dedicated to elevating human wisdom and inspiring creativity. Our vision and aim are to foster the communicative integration of art, science, philosophy, and the humanities across disciplines. We have established the Science & Art Lab, which somewhat resembles the ZKM Center for Art and Media Karlsruhe. However, the Science & Art Lab is focused onapplication scenarios that bring together science and art. In this way, we hope to contribute ideas to the growth of artificial intelligence, virtual reality, electronic art, and other related media art fields. What do you think of this direction? Do you have any suggestions for us?
乌利·希克
当然，我之前没有参与服务器艺术基金会的讨论，所以这对我是新问题。我适才看到服务器艺术基金会的一部分发展计划，当然，如能了解更多细节，或许可以提一些有效见解。然而，即便在视觉艺术领域，目前的趋势正朝跨学科发展，因为视觉艺术倾向于自我消耗。
跨学科的想法很好，因为艺术家总要寻找新的资源。长久以来，中国艺术家痴迷于西方的观念艺术，把它用作创作的灵感来源。再往后，艺术家开始寻回自身的文化根性，从中国传统汲取养分进行创作。介入视觉艺术以外的领域，比如科技，是拓宽资源的好办法。我常去卡尔斯鲁厄看展览，他们自称“数字包豪斯”，我认可他们成立的宗旨，但他们最终完成的不外乎一场艺术展，并没像承诺的那样有革命性。
卡尔斯鲁厄的经验告诉我们，真正有所作为，让美好的想法成为现实的效应，并非易事。从您给我的材料里，我看到服务器艺术基金会正在做一些尝试，比如这个艺术诊所板块，或者，它是否意味着艺术家诊所？
US: Of course, I’m not aware of everything you have discussed internally, so this is very new for me. I just saw a few lines about what your plans are. Of course, if I knew more of the details, I might be able to say something more meaningful. However, even in the visual arts, the trend is moving toward crossover into other disciplines, because sometimes the visual arts exhaust themselves.
The idea is a very good one, because artists always have to find more resources. For a long time, Chinese artists were fascinated with Western conceptual art, and for many years this served as a resource for artists to make works. After that, many artists returned to their own roots, to Chinese tradition, and drew a lot of resources from Chinese tradition for their art. Crossing over into realms outside the visual arts, including technology, is a very interesting resource to exploit, so I think it’s a very good direction. l go to Karlsruhe from time to time to see their exhibitions. They call themselves the “Digital Bauhaus” - I think they play a useful role, but in the end, what’s visible is yet another art exhibition, so I don’t see them to be as revolutionary as they promise. What does that tell us? It tells us that it’s not so easy to really make a difference, and to have a concept that’s more than just beautiful words, but leads to somewhere in practice, in reality. From the materials you gave me, I saw that you had some ideas you were going to try out, like this Art Clinic or Artist Clinic?
顾振清
是的。
GZQ: Yes.
乌利·希克
的确，这个想法很有趣，但我不确定这是个好名字。有哪个艺术家愿去诊所呢？言下之意这个艺术家身心出了问题，病了且需要帮助。很少有人会同意。或许可以改个名字，令其更有邀请之意，让艺术家看了愿意去，而不是以“病人”身份寻诊。但这只是细节，对吧？
US: Yes, which I think is quite an interesting idea. I don’t know if that’s a good name, because what artist wants to go to a clinic? It means that the artist has a problem, that he’s sick and needs help. Only a few would probably agree to that. Maybe I would name it differently. Something more inviting, so that an artist feels that he might want to go there, without being a “patient.” But that’s a detail, right?
顾振清
是的。
GZQ: Yes.
乌利·希克
但对那些被外界所困的艺术家来说，这个想法是个有趣的想法。我们都知道陷入困境的艺术家很难走出来，此时外界的帮助也许值得一试。我觉得这个主意会很有帮助，只是不知道你在艺术诊所里能接触到多少人。
中国艺术家是骄傲的人，这一点众所周知，所以我不确定他们是否愿意承认自己需要帮助。可能你们还会有对创作者来说更具有诱惑力的条件，但我认为这是个好主意，据我了解，这只是你想做的一个板块。我觉得这个想法和科学联系起来会很有趣。而其他重点在跨学科的项目可能会与设计、建筑或电影有关，但同时关注艺术和科学的人我还没见过。我之所以觉得它这么有趣，是因为它们（艺术和科学）在创造力领域有重叠，不仅如此，而且在很大程度上，两者都需要创造力才能非同凡响。
你在材料中多次提到“创造力”这个词，而我认为从科学和艺术这两个领域汲取经验并聚焦在创造力上，便会大有收获，而且这方面的实践几乎是前无古人的。很多年前在瑞士发生过一件真实的事：一位精神科医生专注于一种创造性是如何形成的研究。他做的课题非常有趣，也许这在中国也是可以做的。大概三十年前，他邀请一个小组会见诺贝尔奖得主、著名数学家和作曲家。在小组讨论中，他们要解释他们是如何做出各自的重大发明的，或者究竟是如何地创作作品的。这对参与其中的我来说，是非常有趣的，我就能提炼出创作过程如何影响他们工作以及这位精神学家的理论进展。他定义了创造力过程：从制定一个任务或一个问题开始，然后是问题被思考打磨的孵化期，这个孵化期可短可长，直到突然一个冷不防，答案出现了，它是如何触发的就看各种情况了。以发明扫描隧道显微镜的诺贝尔奖得主为例，这个人在瑞士的IBM实验室花了18年时间寻找一个公式 —— 一个他认为可以解决问题的数学公式。有一段时间他身心交瘁，被送到美国的IBM疗养胜地。毕竟都精疲力竭了，他也只能躺在床上，他抬头看天花板的时候，一个猛然看到了这个公式。他们的故事太有趣了……就是关于人是如何经历创意瞬间以及用各种方式相信这个瞬间的。
以上就是我看到的益处所在——你可以怎样诱发创造力。科学家和视觉艺术家对创造力和如何诱发创造力这两个因素的依赖，可能是最多的。在此，他们要超过工艺或设计领域的人，以及实用学科或应用艺术的人。科学研究一般都要有目的，但是基础科学和艺术没有，所以创造力就变得更加核心。
我认为艺术家和科学家成为搭档，会有很多东西要谈。但我认为，启动这些接触会引来一些复杂的问题。为什么？因为如果你把艺术家们聚集在一起，他们会本能地想保留一些东西。他们不想告诉其他艺术家下一个作品方案是什么，因为担心他们的创意被其他人窃取。科学家们的情况也会如此，如果他们都在同一个研究领域的话。你将如何安排以便规避这些问题，真正展开对话？这不容易，但我刚才提到的那个灵感乍现的例子可能是一个很好的方法。我认为你是在做一件很好的事情，但困难在于你总得去处理讨论之外的事情。你需要一些实践结果，可能还需要更多的思考。
US: But the idea, to be there for artists who are stuck, is an interesting one. We all know artists who have gotten stuck, and it’s sometimes very difficult to take a step out of that. At that point, maybe outside help is worth a try. It’s a helpful idea; I just don’t know how many people you’re really reaching with a Clinic.
Chinese artists are proud people — I don’t have to tell you all — so I’m not sure whether they’ll want to admit that they need this help. There may be more inviting terms, but I think it’s a good idea, and that’s just one facet, as I understand , of what you want to do. I think it’s very interesting to connect to science. Other projects elsewhere with an interdisciplinary focus may link up with design, architecture, or film, but I don’t know anyone who really focuses on art and science. I find this so interesting because they overlap in the field of creativity — not only , but there in a major way. Both need creativity to excel.
You mentioned that word several times in your materials, and I think a focus on creativity, drawing lessons from both fields, can be very rewarding, and not a lot has happened in this area. Actually, in Switzerland, many years ago, we had a psychiatrist who focused on the creative process, and what he did was very interesting — and maybe this is something that could be done in China as well. It was almost thirty years ago. He would invite a small group to meet with Nobel Prize winners, famous mathematicians, or composers. It was just a group talk, where they would explain how exactly they made their big invention or how exactly they composed that piece. This was very, very interesting for me as a participant; todistill how the creative process affected their work and the theories he developed. He defined the creative process,starting with formulating a task or a problem , then an incubation period of pondering about the issue, which could be very short or very long, , till all of a sudden a solution would pop up and how exactly this was triggered in each case. Take, for example, the Nobel Prize winner who developed the scanning tunneling microscope. He spent eighteen years in the IBM lab in Switzerland searching for a formula, a certain mathematical formula that he thought would be the solution. At some point he got so exhausted that they sent him to a kind of IBM resort in the U.S. to relax; he was lying there on his bed, exhausted, and all of the sudden, looking up at the ceiling, he saw this formula. . Their stories were so interesting… how people have this creative moment, and how they thought this could be helped in all kinds of ways. That was something I found very useful — discovering how you can induce creativity. Scientists and visual artists may be the ones who depend most on these two elements, more so than in craft or design, or in the very functional disciplines or applied arts.
Science generally has to have a purpose, but basic science and art do not, so creativity becomes even more central. I think the two sides have a lot to talk about, but initiating those encounters will have some complications, I think. Why? Because if you bring artists together, they naturally want to keep some things to themselves. They don’t want to tell other artists what their next work is going to be, because the other artists might steal their idea. The scientists are similar, if they are all in the same field. How will you organize it so that you can circumvent such issues and really launch a dialogue? That’s not easy, but that example I just mentioned may be a good way to do it. I think you’re trying to do a very good thing, but the difficulty lies in having something happen beyond discussions. You need some kind of practical result. There probably needs to be more thought about how that happens.
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